- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
Very weird that I am so old and have literally never heard this mentioned in a TV show or book or movie or anything.
In four out of five states, if you go to prison, you are literally paying for the time you spend there.
As you can guess, this results in crippling debt as soon as you’re released.
The county gets back a fraction of what they hold over your head the rest of your life until you commit suicide(or die naturally and peacefully with the sword of damocles hanging over your head).
$20-$80 a day according to Rutgers.
Counties apparently sue people and employ wage garnishment to get back the money that majority of people obviously cannot pay back.
https://www.rutgers.edu/news/states-unfairly-burdening-incarcerated-people-pay-stay-fees
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In Utah, you get charged fees by the day if you’ve been charged and/or convicted of a misdemeanor. No charge if it’s a felony. They figure they’ll get their moneys worth if the inmate goes to work at Utah Corrections Industries.
Even if you’re just charged, or you have to be convicted and in prison?
The US is in free fall. Kinda crazy to see how passive the people are there.
So many people get a hard-on about the 2nd Amendment but they’re all too spineless to invoke it.
What can I do?
Americans are protesting and many are getting physically assaulted and arrested for protests everyday, and there are many civil rights and labor rights groups constantly bringing lawsuits against the government, actively changing policy.
Unfortunately the government has been very busy snatching up essential liberties and writing bullshit laws, and it’s almost impossible to keep up with the protests and lawsuits. The politicians get paid to be there, and can spend all of their time on legislation. Once they pass something, boom, it’s in effect. Then it costs organizations and citizens tons of time and money to protest and appeal what was so easily done by the legislators.
Fortunately, there are a lot of people who don’t give up because stuff gets hard.
True, but we’re losing ground.
And gaining ground in other areas.
It’s the long and arduous process of fighting for and maintaining civil rights, nobody is going to snap their fingers and make everything better.
Just to really fuck up your life when you get out
The system is working as intended
In particular, to force you back into crime, to be able to pay for that debt.
just declare bankruptcy
Absolutely, I mean I’m already a felon, what’s one more barrier to credit and gainful employment?
@aodhsishaj @metaStatic bankruptcy is by far not the worse thing you can do. Often trying to unbury yourself will take longer to get back to solvency.
We had to medical B out. Get cancer these days, particularly with a $6K+ deductible for a PPO and you’re toast. We managed to switch to a HMO before surgery and we were still toast. And I had a Good Job.
File, get a pre-paid card then some high-interest you barely use, then some “normal” credit and it builds faster than you know
If you think bankruptcy is bad, look at all the rich people and corps that do it as often as possible
Edit: I mean Herr Trumptard has filed no less than six times to avoid paying people
Did Donald file for personal bankruptcy or did a Donald business file for bankruptcy? It might be like stealing: legal and cool if you are a corporation and the victims are poors.
Corporations have more rights than the people, and rich people hide behind their companies. So, without looking it up, I’m guessing trump business.
Rich people never pay what they owe, especially if they owe it to the gov’t. Unlike poor people, the police doesn’t knock on their door to get the money.
This golden oldie, “all hail the job creators, creators of all jobs.”
Bankruptcy without a lawyer, a permanent address and transportation to the courts is a serious hurdle. People rotating out of prison are already at a disadvantage. My point is they shouldn’t be in debt when they leave prison in the first place. The whole point is that they paid their debt to society.
This isn’t, oh shit I’m in over my head in a cornerstore, restaurant, family warehouse, what have you. It’s very tone-deaf to not address the elephant in the room of these people entering society at a grave disadvantage.
The services below should not be necessary for every person incarcerated by the state. The system is broken.
https://legalbeagle.com/5666136-file-bankruptcy-prison.html
https://library.nclc.org/article/bankruptcys-role-alleviating-criminal-justice-debt-0
Debtor’s Prison is illegal… happens anyway
Bankruptcy isn’t a bad option if you don’t have any credit or have bad credit already. You can turn things around in a couple of months. Also I am unaware of employers performing a credit check as a basis for employment.
@Trollception @aodhsishaj they do if there’s a gov’t clearance or you’re touching corp money involved. But in most cases they’ll let you explain what happened.
You’ve chosen your username well.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/credit-score-employer-checking
Felonies also don’t help with getting a job. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2022/02/08/employment/
Bankruptcy, without a lawyer is not just a couple months. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/credit-score/bankruptcy-on-credit-report/
Also another place where credit can affect your chances is housing https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/credit-score-needed-to-rent-apartment?op=1
And when it’s that bad you can just move into a relatives house right? https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11290&context=ilj
Wait, are you unironically advocating for people not to declare bankruptcy after leaving prison with crippling debt?
I’m saying it shouldn’t be necessary in the first place. You’re supposed to have paid your debt to society by being in there. Federal amd state tax money pay for you to be there, charging room and board is predatory.
Just declare bankruptcy bro! Is a very tone deaf response to what is essentially bonded labor.
Depends on the company. Background checks can include credit checks. Any job with money or security clearance will check credit and large employers sometimes do as well.
Common in IT roles as well.
Blows my mind, credit has nothing to do with IT skills?!
great solution
So felons can do that, but students can’t with crushing loans. Cool
cool and normal
I wish i knew why you were being downvoted but nobody offered a counter point. Bankrupcy seems like a logical solution for this situation.
I hope kbin never federates downvotes because I couldn’t care less
but it’s probably people who got scammed with student loans they can’t discharge with bankruptcy.
The US is starting to sound made up
I honeatly think that a lot.
isn’t every country made up after all?
But this has begun sounding like made up details, like someone heard how we feel and they decided to play into those concerns to see how much we’d believe before calling them out.
It’s real and I’m here. Pls save me.
I’d love to invite you up north but we need to get some housing first.
We all have housing. It’s just a matter of prying the leeches off first.
As long as the leeches are still there then we really don’t.
Got any salt?
The finest.
WTB 1 salt. 5k /wave2 /glow:green
I left America over a decade ago due to a laundry list of grievances that I developed while having only ever lived in America.
Once I started living in other countries, I finally developed context to compare my American life with. And it just made things look so much worse than I had previously thought.
And now it feels like not a day can go by without learning some new awful truth about my former home.
It’s unfortunate you left… When good people leave, we’re stuck with more of the bad gaining power.
If we lose this country to the bad people even more than it’s already been lost, then the entire world may pay dearly as a result.
If he left a solid red or blue state, it doesn’t really matter. Our minority representation, first pst the pole voting and electoral college means that a lot of smart people from cities or solid blue areas can leave and nothing will change.
Plus OP’s an outlier, most of us can’t afford to relocate like this.
Where did you go, if you don’t mind me asking? It’s certainly something we’ve talked about…
I hopped around Southeast Asia until I landed in Japan.
It’s not easy here, and it’s not without its own problems, but it works much better for me.
(I’d probably still be in Singapore were it not for the heat. The food is 10/10 and dirt cheap, but I missed seasons.)
(I knew that answering this question would make the jerks upset somehow.)
Do you have to struggle with the insane only work, no life, salary man/woman problems? Or did you find something that doesn’t follow that “life style?”
No, I see it but I don’t have to deal with it.
It’s also not as much of a constant as it used to be.
It’s called the American Dream because you’ve got to be asleep to believe it
It was. Everywhere was.
Yes, but the more I live and hear things about the states it starts to sound like satire or as if it’s a joke to see what other people will believe.
You’re just getting older, haha. The longer we live, the more we can’t help seeing what’s right in front of us.
If only that were true for everyone.
Nah, it’s exactly the other way around. Except for a tiny minority. All the others have to ignore what’s around them in order to not go insane.
I can understand why it seems that way, but the broad American public supports civil and labor liberties, green energy, healthy and equitable policies in general; it’s the vocal minority that is subverting the will of the more fair-minded, rational and compassionate majority(sure would be nice if more than one out of every three or four people voted).
And I don’t even think most conservatives believe in the policies they support so much as they don’t comprehend what they’re supporting and they are afraid of relinquishing control over what they narrowly perceive as “power” and “freedom”.
The ones I’ve talked to don’t.
I feel like most of them only vote R because they’re getting bamboozled into believing that the Rs stand for conservative, Christian, family values.
Anecdotally, ignorance and fear seems to be significant factors supporting conservative beliefs.
When I tell a liberal something that they aren’t expecting or that they didn’t know, they’ll respond with “what? How do you know that? Really?”
Then with a conservative, I usually get “No, no. Really? Well, I don’t know about that, anyway…”
And that’ll be some hard truth or contradicting statistic that the conservative doesn’t want to address or learn about because it will fly in the face of a fear or ignorance based belief.
I’d like to believe that. Social Media did a great job of reprogramming people.
Media did a great job before that, and humans tend to get conservative as they age, so I think there’s a lot of factors working together to make people more cynical than they ought to be.
rationales justifying these fees routinely do not recognize them as a form of punishment and instead policymakers see pay-to-stay as financial reimbursement to the state by portraying incarcerated people as using up system resources. The justification allows pay-to-stay statutes to survive legal arguments alleging double punishment.
It’s actually worse than that… I went looking for a list, I found this:
https://www.vox.com/2015/5/26/8660001/prison-jail-cost
“Forty-three states allow inmates to get charged for “room and board” — the cost of their own imprisonment. Thirty-five states charge inmates for at least some medical expenses. Taken together, at least 49 states have a law on the books that authorizes at least one of the two. (Hawaii, as well as DC, doesn’t have statutes that explicitly address pay-to-stay.)”
I have a friend who was in. Outrageously expensive! Paid ‘rent’, paid for various classes he was required to take, and paid for each mandatory random drig test. Plus, what they have to pay for phone calls is crazy!!
Yeah that is totally crazy.
I’ve obviously heard from movies and stuff that you have to pay for your phone calls, but not once have I sienna depicted prisoners paying for their jail time and paying for the classes they take prison.
It’s totally insane
You mean the prison forgives your prisoner debt if you make license plates?
What do you mean by your comment “I think it’s forgiven if you take the job making license plates at $2/hr sometimes $2/day”?
I’m missing something, because all of your comments are way out of context.
Were you trying to respond to somebody else initially?
$12 for a 15 minute phone call, more if it’s considered long distance.
Let me guess - long distance is if it’s outside the prison? /s
Lol at those citations. low bar.
Shouldve shopped around for a prison within your means
They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison Following the rights movement, you clamped on with your iron fists Drugs became conveniently available for all the kids Following the rights movement, you clamped on with your iron fists Drugs became conveniently available for all the kids I buy my crack, my smack, my bitch right here in Hollywood (Nearly two million Americans are incarcerated in the prison system, prison system of the US) They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison (For you and me to live in) Another prison system Another prison system Another prison system (For you and me) Minor drug offenders fill your prisons you don’t even flinch All our taxes paying for your wars against the new non-rich Minor drug offenders fill your prisons you don’t even flinch All our taxes paying for your wars against the new non-rich I buy my crack, my smack, my bitch right here in Hollywood (The percentage of Americans in the prison system, prison system, has doubled since 1985) They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison (For you and me to live in) Another prison system Another prison system Another prison system (For you and me) For you and I, you and I, you and I You and I They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison for you and me Oh, baby, you and me Oh Oh All research and successful drug policy show that treatment should be increased (Oh) And law enforcement decreased while abolishing mandatory minimum sentences (Oh) All research and successful drug policy show that treatment should be increased (Oh) And law enforcement decreased while abolishing mandatory minimum sentences Utilising drugs to pay for secret wars around the world Drugs are now your global policy, now you police the globe I buy my crack, my smack, my bitch right here in Hollywood Drug money is used to rig elections and train brutal corporate sponsored dictators around the world They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison (For you and me to live in) Another prison system Another prison system Another prison system (For you and me) For you and I, you and I, you and I You and me They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison They’re trying to build a prison for you and me Oh, baby, you and me
Yeah that’s a good one.
You can separate the lines so it’s not all clumped together by adding double spaces at the end of the line.
I had to do that once when I posted a message like this, haha.
I felt like a dingus tapping out all the spaces, but it was very satisfying when it was properly formatted.
For music the backslash at the end (
\) is also useful, as it allows you to split verses without a new paragraph. For exampleverse 1\ verse 2 verse 3\ verse 4appears as
verse 1
verse 2verse 3
verse 4TIL. Thanks, that’ll be very useful.
You can separate the lines so it’s not all clumped together by adding double spaces at the end of the line.
I’m fully aware of this and saw what it did when I pasted it in…however…
I felt like a dingus tapping out all the spaces
I was also aware of this before I even began to, so I didn’t bother.
Did you see that slash trick
another commenter saysif you throw a after a line
all of the following lines will beAutomatically formatted
Correctly
For song lyrics Not this one thoughOh, but you still have to throw a after every single line. \
Isn’t the US famous for their prison for profit, where prisons are privately owned and states need to pay if there are fewer incarcerated people inside?
To me, this sounds straight from 1984.
It’s less than ten percent of federal prisons. Police unions (including correctional officers) have a greater impact.
I don’t remember prisons being mentioned in 1984. They just vaporized people and then acted like they never existed
Yeah, the states is the most country with for-profit prisons, and not coincidentally incarcerates the 6th highest percentage of its population of any country, just about half a percent of the total population at any time, or somewhere under 2 million people.
But boy howdy, do those percentages change when you control for economic class and ethnicity.
So they can sponge off any legal judgements you get for false imprisonment
This is some serious “keep hitting yourself” material. It’s not like you can decide to not be incarcerated. $7300-$29200 of debt per year spent in prison. Man, that is some vicious shit. Nobody will be able to convince me that this is not specifically designed to keep people down forever.
Exactly. Recidivism makes a lot more sense now.
Imagine if you had $30,000 of debt right after you get out of jail with zero contacts and social support.
Yeah of course you’re going to go back to what you were doing before, you have no other options that you’re aware of.
Fuck that system.
It’s not rehabilitation, it’s slavery with extra steps
The amendment banning slavery says you can still enslave people if it’s to punish them for a crime
Prisons are largely privatized nowadays, creating a demand for prisoners as they profit off of the free labor they get from prisoners
Rehabilitation efforts in the modern penal system are largely non-existent, with people usually coming out more violent and criminal than they came in, even if it was a bullshit arrest.
Black people are incarcerated at higher rates and with harsher sentences than white people for the same crimes, they also tend to get found guilty on much weaker evidence than their white peers
If you think it’s a coincidence, I can’t help you
Were you responding to me specifically or just sharing this information in general?
I am talking to you, I’m just saying the system wasn’t designed this way out of stupidity, but malice.
Got it.
You also have a record which makes getting hired even more difficult.
“Here’s the opposite of a college degree for the same price”
A lot of the education programs in prison are equally vile. They have people learn a few skills or trades, then when they get out they learn it’s impossible to get a state license in that trade because they are felons.
My wife knows a guy who learned programming in prison. He was apparently extremely lucky in which one he was sent to. And I don’t mean like “was fortunate for how he was charged” no he got sent to the most recent “prison reform” prison. They never close or update the old ones, just use prison reform as a justification to build a new one.
And it’s never going to change either. No politician would ever campaign on a platform of prison reform, few would even vote in favor of it. Imagine the attack ads “Jeff Jackson wants to let murders and rapists go free and work at your kid’s school. Jack Jefferson protects kids and is tough on criminals voting three time to
ensure growth of his investments in PrisonMegaCorpmake sure they rot in prison forever… I’m Jack Jefferson and I approve this message.”Prison reform can happen in the United States, and it can be used as a platform by Earnest politicians like Bernie Sanders or AOC.
Prison abuse and reform happened in other countries, and there isn’t any evidence for inherent American exceptionalism
People are people, so positive prison reforms can happen in the States too.
“It’s not like you can decide to not be incarcerated”
You can though…
It would be nice if the prisoners could take class or earn a degree while in prison, at least when they get out they have a new skill or a degree so they have a better chance to get a job to pay off their prison debt.
That would happen if Rehabilitation was the goal, that is not the point of the private prison system, the point is to legalize slavery.
They can
Not always.
Regardless of the fact that prison education is clearly beneficial for the prison population and wider society, many prison education programs experienced significant budget cuts. States with large prison populations had cut prison education funding by 10%, on average. On top of this, further research has shownthat states with medium-sized populations slashed education budgets by an average of 20%.
The introduction of the Second Chance Pell Experimental Sites Initiative helped fund additional programs in 2016, although access to postsecondary education in prisons remained limited because the scheme served a maximum of 12,000 prisoners annually. Since, the program has enrolled 22,000 participantsand 130 colleges in the scheme, although only 7,000 individuals have earned credentials. Due to this, many of the 2.1 million people who are currently incarcerated in the U.S. are denied access to education.
However:
To find out how people who have been in prison feel about this situation, we conducted a survey of 100 people who have recently been incarcerated. Surprisingly, they told us that they were generally happy with the education opportunities presented to them. Overall, 74% of our respondents told us that they disagreed with the statement “I had no access to educational programs/education whilst incarcerated.”
As well as being offered an education, many of our respondents told us that they were actively encouraged to take part in these programs. More than 60% of respondents disagreed with the statement “I was not encouraged to participate in educational programs whilst incarcerated.”
So access to education seems to be one of those things that is at least partially lip service. Education might be offered, it also might be substandard compared to a regular school. However, if it is offered and decent, inmates who have participated in getting a GED or better education state that it did help with avoiding recidivism and having better mental health.
A survey of 100 people out of 10s of thousands is useless.
Ok. Glad you weighed in with your expertise. This may not be the exhaustive survey that would offer incontrovertible proof, but it’s what we’ve got. Care to offer anything to the contrary other than an opinion?
You can cherry-pick anything if you have 22K people to pick from and only need 100. We don’t how and at which point the question was asked. We don’t know the selection process. All we know is that they got 100 people to say something. It shouldn’t matter if we agree with the findings.
Ok. So you’re attacking the source, not the argument, while absolving yourself of any effort to contribute to the discussion. Well done.
Omg I can hear my parents now:
“Wait, I had to work and save and still not be able to afford an education?!?! I sHoUlD hAvE jUsT hElD uP a CoNvEnIeNcE sToRe.”
I agree with you, 100%, FWIW. I’m just imagining the asinine conversations we’re going to have to have with people who don’t understand that the world doesn’t revolve around them and they’re not the main character.
In Finland low risk prisoners can even get (or keep) a job. They drive a loaner car from the prison to their job in the morning and then drive back to prison in the afternoon.
Oh here in America they have to hold a job. If they work really hard they may even make a few dollars a day
It all goes to the company store.
Well after they’re done shaking down your loved ones too. It’s ok together you can all theoretically scrape together enough to keep you fed
As someone who’s lived in the US her life everytime I hear about other first world nations it sounds so idyllic that if you put it in a Utopian Future Sci-Fi novel I’d laugh and call it hopelessly optimistic and just incredibly naive about how humans work…
But… no… people outside of America actually live like this…
This is not a cry for help (It totally is, I hate it here)
But for real though, if America wasn’t a world power (at the expense of its citizens’ well-being) or if there were other world powers strong as or stronger than it that weren’t Russia or China, I would not be even slightly surprised if it offered amnesty to US Citizens fleeing Late Stage Capitalism, at this point it’d be morally justified…
The UN actually did surveys here and found that Americans (especially in rural areas) experience levels of poverty that said UN believed to only exist in the worst case scenarios of 3rd World Countries. The problem is THAT bad…
God I hope there’s an afterlife, that may be the only way any of us see true freedom… escaping reality itself.
This is a standart in German prisons.
Do all the politicians sleep in prison?
You can, just not a degree specifically but you can get certifications and a ged in prison
I commented this elsewhere, but a lot of those certifications are not worth anything because if you are a felon you cannot get that state license.
You absolutely can still use those certifications and they are often the stepping stone to help you get your foot in the door in an industry. I used to work IT in corrections and while not everyone winds up making it, I’ve seen felons go on to make $40/hr doing welding.
I do not agree with the US when it comes to corrections at all and I think it is blatantly abused in order to incarcerate as many people as possible, but I will give credit where it is due, not ALL hope is lost if you get incarcerated
Nobody will convince me that two plus two isn’t four.
In Oz you get paid a small amount per day so you have some adjustment money when you get out
Oz is better.
Is the far right movement down there getting as bad as it is presented, or is that just the only thing newspapers talk about besides the wildfires?
Nah, we have what we call casual racism, but the real far right intense stuff is a vocal minority. I live in regional NSW and we have a growing immigrant population, largely from Asia and Africa. The colour difference between what was here 5 years ago and now is there if you care to look but honestly it is just people being people for the most part, nobody really seems to care. That said, our billionaires are a major issue and government capture seems inevitably unless major reform goes through.
Best of luck.
I was in and around Melbourne for a few months, and everyone I met seemed very cool, just people being people, so that’s good to hear.
Except, what shocked me over and over again as I traveled, was I always met someone who loved Trump.
Like I was staying with this hippie outside melbourne couchsurfing and he started talking about Trump and Q, and I had no idea what he was talking about at that point, and after I found out what conspiracy theories q was putting forth. I was so confused as to how this hippie wholeheartedly believed in things like pizzagate or the like.
I was so confused as to how this hippie wholeheartedly believed in things like pizzagate or the like.
Too much snoop smoke while browsing 4chan is my guess
Very weird that I am so old and have literally never heard this mentioned in a TV show or book or movie or anything.
I don’t think that’s weird at all. But it certainly says a lot about the US media landscape.
I’ve also never met anyone in real life who has ever heard about this.
And at this point I’ve texted everybody I know.
How did zero people ever in my whole life know this?
Like I know lawyers, and we’ve occasionally talked about how terrible the prison situation in the United States is, it’s crazy that not one of them mentioned that prisoner is also have to pay to stay.
Ever.
Charging a prisoner to stay in jail seems like one of the cruelest parts of prison, now that I know about it. That seems crazy.
And that’s what literally everyone I have told is saying.
“That’s crazy.” And it is. It’s crazy
