AA much hate this might be getting, they’re offering discounts on a new product, and 16 years is a hell of a lifetime. Imagine having to support software written in c99 maybe even c89, with some homebrew UI full of bugs.
It’s a thermostat.
I’m coming from a field where supporting software written in the 70s is the norm.
Your argument is horribly short-sighted and wasteful.
Only 16 years old is extremely recent software that ought to be easily maintained in any sane world.
I understand you may be from a field where supporting software from the 70s is required, however someone is probably paying big bucks for that software as well. Replacing the software you work on might cost millions, replacing a thermostat costs 300 usd.
I would love to live in a world where software support lasts 70 years. But consumers don’t look at software support, so it’s not budgeted in the price, and thus doesn’t happen in the consumer space. Getting 16 years in a consumer device is long.
In the field you’re working, stability, longevity, and robustenes is probably a requirement, not a nice to have.
I’m in my house right now with a perfectly working thermostat that’s 70 years old.
And given the mechanism of action it will continue working in another 70 years.
16 years for hardware used inside of homes is a ridiculously, absurdly, short lifetime. Even for a vehicle that would be pushing the edge of “too short”.
That said 16-year-old software is not that old. If it’s built using sane language choices it should actually be functioning and modern today.
That is true, but my smart TV and smart scale both got something like 5 years of updates. Who buys a new scale every 5 years? My parents still have a scale from the 90s that works fine.
Wtf is a smart scale?
The article says that offline functions will continue to work. So they’ll just become regular thermostats.
and 16 years is a hell of a lifetime
Think about it like this: Even if the average home nowadays had only about 10 such devices (I am quite sure the average home has a lot more), that are needed for kitchen appliances, heating, warm water, window shutters, solar panels, etc to function - that means on average about once a year one of the essential functions in the house stops working unless you replace a part. Not because it’s broken, but because “SW support is discontinued”. Seriously, I want to smash everyones faces for those “early adopters” who think smart homes are great, and of course the companies who put software in every little component.
That’s why I have KNX.
16 years old? That thermostat has sure had a run, must have been designed pretty well to last this long without some electronic failure.
Assuming it’s cloud connected, anyone aware whether it got updates for the newer versions of TLS and root certificates? As an example I’m aware quite a lot of android and similar devices from that era have expired certificates now, and outdated/vulnerable SSL libraries…
Edit: Edit example
16 years old? That thermostat has sure had a run
I have game consoles that are more than twice that old and still play reliably. Apple really skewed our idea of lifespans for electronics, didn’t they? It’s a thermostat, they should be designed to install and forget for the next half-century. It’s a core part of a house, like the plumbing and breaker box.
Didn’t the pace of change influence our perception more than anything else?
Don’t old computers on old operating systems work as well as they did when support was dropped? Much like your example of consoles?
The rate of software gobbling up newly available resources seems to a big reason people feel the need to move on. But I think that is starting to flatten out as the pace of processor improvements slows.
The bloat on the web is a huge burden on older devices too. Especially for your average person.
The bloat on the web and in native software (and in non-native software that is just another copy of Chrome posing as native software) comes from our newly available resources allowing for “lazy” development practices that prioritize cross platform development and other factors over writing efficient native software for each platform.
There are a lot of factors involved in the rate of device turnover. I don’t think any one factor is consistently forcing people to upgrade hardware. It’s a collective situation.
I use my desktop computers, for work, for nearly 10 years past their introduction date before replacing them. (Three more to go for my current machine). For my gaming computer, I swap a major part every 5-6 years.
And to reiterate, I think this rate of change is slowing down. At least for raw processing power and how long it is relevant. The rate of change over the course of personal computing has been massive. And it’s just starting to slow down.
Ah yes. Apple, the company with the longest support windows for secure patches of any phone/tablet manufacturer, are definitely the ones skewing our ideas on the lifespan of electronics.
Why is it so common for Apple users to replace their devices every 1-2 years then? Theres a reason it’s a meme. Regardless of what Apple does with old hardware, they promote this mentality of always needing the next new shiny thing. They’re the pioneers of that.
I’m still on a rooted Samsung from 2017. I know several people who went through 3 iPhones in that time.
For a thermostat that’s built into a house, 16 years doesn’t seem long enough, tbh. A ‘dumb’ thermostat can easily be in use for 30+ years before anyone would even consider replacing it.
But yeah, as you said, if it’s connected to the internet you have to worry about software patches, certificates, etc.
Yeah, the old dumb ones in my house have been there for 50 years.
Yeah the thermostat that was in my home until ~2010 was added in the 20s lol. 16 years isn’t long at all.
Thermostats are easy to change out. So this isn’t a huge deal. But I don’t love the idea that tech isn’t built to be self-hosted or maintained in any meaningful way. If you’re not shipping an open source version of your software when you close up, you’re an asshole.
Yeah, self hosting isn’t for most lay people if it’s just a GitHub repo. But GitHub repos quickly become adopted by nerds like me who build tooling around it that eventually let lay people self host software with the click of a button.
It is also nice that these just degrade to regular thermostats. It isn’t like they are completely stopping working. It would be nice if you could swap out the API, or they keep the API running longer (how much work can maintaining it be?). But this sounds like a pretty graceful degradation.
It would be nice to have these speak some common Zigbee protocol or similar. But this isn’t the worst behaviour I have seen from companies.
This is pretty much what happened with HomeAssistant. Tying all the integrations together in one platform.
It’s now at the stage of “copy these files to a pi/buy this box we make”
The overall aim is to integrate most open things, and find ways to work with/around more closed off products.
Yeah, self hosting isn’t for most lay people if it’s just a GitHub repo…
If ecobee put their backend code on GitHub, I bet it would be self hostable with docker within a week.
Are you aware of a decent number of mainstream products that didn’t go full asshole? I agree with you absolutely, but I feel like the majority of connected products pull this same shit.
Yeah the majority do it and I think it’s bad.
Newer versions are Homekit compatible and can be controlled over the local network.
As long as HomeKit remains a thing.
It is a standard. I don’t know how you can make it not be a thing once it is implemented.
But it’s not an open standard, and all of the 3rd party home kit apps are basically a new client for services that Apple develops.
I say this as someone who sticks with HomeKit because I think it’s one of the better IOT solutions if you care about for privacy and security. My home is all HomeKit compatible. Lutron, Eve, and homebridge for odds and ends.
But I’m fully aware that, if Apple decided to pull the plug, I’d probably be running some sort of local home brewed HomeKit clone on a raspberry pi to keep the network alive.
HomeAssistant is HomeKit compatible and could probably do everything you’ve got going now locally
Home assistant can talk to homekit devices without involving Apple, so you can assume it’ll be around for a while.
Yeah, 100%. Home assistant can basically connect to any damn thing. Home assistant is going to be the fall back for a lot of legacy iot devices and platforms.
Not quite everything. The stuff that calls home to their own servers can’t be saved by home assistant. If you take care to buy stuff that can be controlled locally, you’re more likely to have some longevity out of your devices.
As per the Ecobee notice this only impacts the two original models and they still function as regular thermostats still, they are just not providing any of the smart / cloud features anymore.
Newer units support local homekit control, which can also be paired with open systems like Home Assistant for full local control for automation.
That’s ok if you ask me, considering that they will still continue to function as regular thermostats
If you bought one of these because you have a heat pump and want to consider the outside temp, that service is now cut off. Not ideal.
I disagree - definitely not OK by me, though likely legal. People bought this because they wanted and paid extra for an internet connected device, and a regular thermostat is not that. I mean, would you be OK if your TV manufacturer disabled the screen and streamed radio stations instead?
The last TV that would’ve lasted 16 years was probably made 40 years ago
I bought my Bravia in 2005 and I’ve still yet to have any issues.
Is this an SD CRT?
1080p LCD.
I bought my first HDTV in like 2011 because the prices were absurd and I didn’t want to waste perfectly fine TV’s I already had. You must have paid $3200 to get that first of its kind TV. Definitely seems like you got lucky for it to last so long
If my TV was 16 years old, and the manufacturer cut off the internet function to it, id be ok with that.
These thermostats still work as thermostats, just without the smart features. Comparing that to turning a TV to a radio is disingenuous. 16 years is a long time, and there are security protocols amongst other things that go obsolete over time and can’t be updated at a certain point on legacy devices.
I honestly can’t understand why anyone would be OK with it. I think our society has been getting trained to just accept whatever they throw at us. “Buying” something no longer means fully owning it, and I’m not OK with that, I just have to live with it.
i say something like this often in real life, but despite it being plainly observable in daily life other people still don’t agree.
it’s on all scales too, or at least it feels like it. moving everything to streaming, always online, etc. want to play a competitive video game with your friends? give a corporation root-level access to your home computer. ads everywhere some greedy ass in a suit can think to stick them whether you pay or not, yet everyone complies like this is normal and i get singled out for caring about our rights as consumers.
i love capitalism i love money
I didn’t say it was ideal, but it’s ok. And it’s definitely better when compared to other companies. Sure, in an ideal world they would have published the source code for their server ensuring that anyone could run their own instance at home. But we don’t live in an ideal world.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone reverse-engineers the protocol and codes up their own replacement backend as a one-file Python script in a weekend.
That truly depends on how secure Ecobee made it… I’ve seen some smart devices that use SSL (https) for all communication and do some sort of certificate authentication, making it virtually impossible to decrypt its communication protocol without a valid private key…
Having said that, it’d be nice if Ecobee took the initiative and opened up these older devices, if they could do so without comprising the security of all their others.
In the last 16 years there’s been multiple SSL vulnerabilities, so if someone was motivated enough, they could probably hack it, especially considering they’d have physical access. You could probably even dump out the filesystem and overwrite certificates with your own.
16 years ago was 2008 (which is shocking in itself, I’m old), SSL was seen as very very optional until 2013, when Snowden dropped his CIA/NSA leaks.
I wouldn’t be surprised, is the security is “trust me, bro”.
Is the firmware enclosed in a SOC with no way of reading/extracting it? If not, if all else fails, someone will extract it and dissect it with Ghidra or something, extracting whatever encryption keys are needed. If so, and there aren’t any documented side-channel attacks for reading the firmware from this SOC, if firmware updates exist, they too constitute an attack surface. (They probably would be encrypted, but how strongly?)
This is why I’m all in for non-“smart crap”, I don’t even have inductive heating stove top because they never have basic knobs.
Long clicking on [3] then + + + + + + to boil your f eggs? No thanks.
I got the Frigidaire professional 36” induction and it does have knobs 😎
I just bought one of these! First press on, then wait a second for the pan to be detected, then select the burner to turn on, then + which sets it to 5/10, then press + 5 more times for full power! The one with knobs was like double price…but hey the pan heats up quick while you are cursing at it.
I just bought one of these!
There weren’t any better options?
Did you try e.g. long pressing buttons, pressing -, or anything?
I had the +/- buttons ages ago (cheap alternative when renting). Never again.
If it detects the pan, why do you need to tell it which burner to use?
It will light up an indicator for each pan detected, so if 2 pans are on the stove you still need to activate the one you want. Assuming you don’t want both on.
Long clicking on [3] then + + + + + + to boil your f eggs?
A lot of them have a terrible UI. But that’s far from all of them. Enough have sliders. Sometimes one with a pan detection. Sometimes a slider per area.
My mom has an induction stove that has knobs.
Definitely a thing, Miele even has a device filter for that feature.
Wow so cheap too 😅
It’s just on and then hold b for boost now. It automatically detects which slot you have placed your pan on and selects that for you. But I get your point…
Induction is great 👍
That is a horrible argument.
Just get a non shit induction stove
The article (which nobody here bothered to open) says they’ll still function as “dumb” thermostats, so actually it’s less of a big deal.
they made it online and dont want to bother actually supporting it…
so we replacing thermostats every decade and a half now?
A link to the official notice: https://support.ecobee.com/s/articles/Connectivity-and-Support-for-Legacy-Products
(It was the first link in the article, good job The Verge)
The company is offering affected users a 30 percent discount on a new Ecobee thermostat, valid for up to 15 thermostats.
…
The company should be giving away new ones, but that’s none of my business [Kermit meme]
While I very strongly agree with your message, I have to say that this is one of the least fitting usernames I’ve ever seen.
Our smart thermostat has never been all that useful to me. The main thing is I don’t have to walk over to it to change the temp. But that convenience isn’t really worth the $150 I paid for it.
The idea is that you can use peaks and drops in electricity pricing to optimize the usage and also to lower the house temperature when nobody is home and raise it again when an occupant enters maybe a 1km radius around the place again.
The way you’re using it is just a gimmick, that’s true.
I get the idea and it’s kinda cool, but not +$100 cool when I can just turn it down/off before I leave.
No, my point is: using it as I described really saves money. The effective power price for my heat pump over the last year is at about 20% beneath market average because I use the thermal mass of my floors to store energy during low price hours. That needs to run automatically, controlling that by hand would be massively annoying or not possible at all when I’m not home.
In addition, when one of our cars is started at one of our respective work carparks the hot water supply is checked and gets heated if it is below the necessary temperature for a shower. So either the day brought enough solar energy that it’s hot enough anyway or the water is heated very specifically for the after work shower for a person returning home. That prevents the heat pump from having to keep high temperatures all day in winter.
The blinds follow the sun when the room temperatures pass 22°C and the solar panels deliver more than 2kW, because in that case it’s obviously sunny. Saves a lot of energy for the AC.
All that saves way more than 100€/year, so remotely controllable fixtures stop being just a gadget when you start to think about the whole energy management in your house, is my point.
using it as I described really saves money
Assuming I:
- own a heat pump ❌
- own solar panels ❌
- own a smart water heater of some kind? ❌
- live somewhere that the temp changes enough that any of this matters ❌
“No you idiot, you just have to spends thousands of dollars on equipment and then you can save $100 a year”
Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Good for you that you’re saving money, but I’m just giving a personal anecdote here, not writing a thesis on home energy management.
You don’t need solar panels. Could also just be dynamic energy pricing. Also do not need a water heater. Thermal mass could just be heating the place at a certain time. Don’t get the bit about temp changes, maybe you mean you never heat or cool your place?
Most thermostats would fail in that timeframe. Our original Nest thermostat failed this year because the connection that turns on the furnace wore out or became thin. Caused our furnace to click on and off repeatedly and ruined a relay on the furnace’s circuit board. Had to replace the thermostat and the furnace circuit board. Costly repair. Upgrade your thermostat before it wears out.
My thermostat is original to our 1941 house, and has survived a fire. My mom just sold her 1989 house with a digital programmable thermostat - also original to the house -that functions perfectly.
No part of a house should wear out and break after 16 years, except MAYBE carpeting. Building things like shit is no excuse for things being shitty, it’s an indictment against it!
16 years? That’s like 8 separate Google project lifetimes.
They just killed my nest cameras, but the thermostat is still supported. I was planning on replacing it with an ecobee this year just because API access is kind of a pain but this is giving me some second thoughts.
Killed, as in the thing you paid for is basically worthless now?
That’s not just planned obsolescence, it’s forced obsolescence
That’s 591 Mooches haha
