The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
So, this is one of the unfortunate traps of our time, especially if you live in a place with car dependent sprawl. Women don’t want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc), and, really, nobody does. You want to work at work, and you want to do your business and go home otherwise. This goes doubly or triply so for complete strangers. There’s really no third places (as they’re called) left, where people go for the express purpose of being social and together. That’s what’s missing here. As someone else said, you are, unfortunately, both a little right.
It’s particularly bad in places like the US that have car dependent sprawl because
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cities often have had their zoning ordinances weaponized by NIMBYs, and it’s probably outright illegal to have a small cafe or shop in your neighborhood, or they’re required to have some outrageous parking minimum or something like that.
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driving sucks more than you may be aware of while you’re doing it. If you have to get into your car to go to the grocery, you don’t want to make five stops at smaller grocers throughout the week; you’d rather just make one big stop at the big box mart and just go tf home. If you want to stop at a cafe, well, just swing through the starbucks drive through so you don’t have to be bothered with getting out.
Well, chances are that most of your interactions at chain businesses and stores are anonymous, so you’re not meeting other people in your community there, you’re not creating any bonds or relationships there, you’re doing your business and getting out, which, frankly, is what they want. You’re especially not making any friends in the drive thru line. For nearly seventy years now, we’ve built our cities to be homes to cars, not people, and it’s bearing fruit in the form of the loneliness epidemic.
My advice to you would be to go out of your way to find situations where people are getting together for the purpose of being social or having fun. Look for classes put on by your local city parks, go check your local library’s bulletin board for events, check social media communities for your nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly. If you’re religious, seek out some religious institutions that you find palatable.
Women don’t want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc),
But they’re fine being solicited while
classes put on by your local city parks, local library’s events, nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly?
Maybe I’m too autistic to understand, but unless those groups are specifically meant for finding a date, it seems to be functionally the same as “personal business.” They’re not interested in being solicited, they just want to have class at class, or book club at book club, or talk about town planning (or whatever these enigmatic town meetings contain) at the meetings. What makes them so different? Even if they’re there to talk (like a book club,) they’re there to talk about books not dating me.
The main difference is that they’re there specifically for the social experience. These folks are not going there to date you, no, but they are going there to socialize, so the barriers to socializing with strangers are greatly lowered. Maybe don’t just go there with dating front and center in your mind; instead focus on just meeting and getting to know people.
I suppose, could be.
Though tbf, I don’t go anywhere “with dating front and center in my mind,” I go places for reasons, and sometimes while at these places I see someone I think is cute and also looks maybe cool, and then dating pops into my mind, like, “oh shit they’re cute, and they look like they might be cool, I wonder if they’d be into me and if it could work out.” Dating is put into my mind by nature of seeing someone I may be interested in dating.
Is that not normal?
That sounds pretty normal to me. Though, in total fairness, I’m ADHD myself, so I feel a lot of what you’ve been saying here. Especially being hyper aware of the social meta. I’ve also learned a lot of advanced masking over the years. Yeah, definitely, if you’re at a social event and someone catches your interest, just start with going and meeting them. Introduce yourself, and a small heartfelt compliment doesn’t hurt, “hey, that was a good question, I wish I’d thought of that”, for example. Also, asking low-risk questions about other people is a good way to endear them to you, “is this your first time going to this class/club? Oh? What got you interested in it?” Etc. These are all pretty good ways to start getting a conversation going so you can get a feel for that person. If it turns out you like that person, you can always offer to trade contact info so you can keep talking, or ask if you could meet somewhere (specific like “the library” or “that coffee shop”) public at a specific time to chat; people tend to be more receptive if you have something specific you want to chat about, even if it’s “getting to know you”. It’s also usually better to put that off until after a second encounter in public, I think. Last, If they ask if it’s a date, be up front, only say “no” or “it doesn’t have to be” if you really mean it. Ofc, YMMV. Best of luck!
very well said. just moved away from Dallas for this very reason. it’s strange to be living right on top of so many people and yet paradoxically feel so isolated from all of them. cars are a scourge on human health in nearly every way imaginable
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Got a bit tangled there bud and you’re horseshoeing
If you never approach women unless you have business with them then you’re treating them as things to have business with or romantic entanglements.
Try just treating us as people. You can have friends, you know.
I’m confused, what is horseshoe in this context?
but in this context: OP is working so hard to not treat their interactions with women as transactions that they only approach them when they have business with them…thus turning all interactions into transactions.
TIL, thanks!
As a guy, I can firmly say that I’ve never made a friend at the bank, grocery store, or coffee shop. If anyone started talking to me at one of these places, I would be very confused, and wonder why they are talking to me and what they are trying to get from me. And similarly, I have never struck up a conversation with anyone in these places - that would be super weird.
Of course, I see hot women in these places frequently, and I’d like to talk to them. Well, not really talk to them so much as fuck them. I’d like to say “hey, you have a really nice ass. Wanna bang one out in the bathroom right now?” Which is not unusual - this is just standard male sexuality. Hence why if you look on Grindr, a guy’s profile will be a picture of his asshole, and a common opener is “Hey, you in the McDonalds too? Wanna fuck in the bathroom right now?”
Unfortunately as a guy talking to a nice lady in the grocery store, that would be sexual harassment, and then I would be banned from that Safeway or whatever. So if I want to approach the girl with a nice ass, I need to have some kind of excuse - like, I dunno, what apples she’s looking at or whatever. But now it feels like I’m lying, because I don’t give a shit about apples - I just care about her nice ass.
You really, really, really need to see women as people-who-might-be-friends, and not exclusively as fuck objects.
I certainly do. I have a lot of female friends. They like me a lot. And I have several ongoing female fwbs. They also like me a lot. And I like and care about my female friends and partners a lot.
None of this changes the fact that literally the only thing I know and like about random grocery store girl is her nice ass, and this is the one and only real reason I would want to approach her. I’ve tried your suggestion before, and I have to say, it’s pretty fucked up. Because what you’re actually saying is “Your sexuality is wrong and bad, and you should be ashamed of it. You are a bad person for wanting to have sex.” So much for sex positivity and not kink shaming, lol. Turns out the most common kink of all - wanting to have sex with hot women - is shameful. Weird how that works.
The desire isn’t shameful dude. The fact you need to make it her problem is.
Where did I say I’m making it her problem?
Your entire commentary.
You see a woman you find sexually desirable about in public, doing normal, human things.
You approach her solely because you want to fuck her. You literally say this. You’re literally only interacting with her because you want to get your dick wet. Newsflash: People don’t want to fuck randos who come up to them at the grocery store. But because you wanted to throw in she now has to get out of the interaction - which I’m guessing is gonna be more than a bit fuckin’ fraught because you don’t seem to be grasping the fact that “I want to fuck it” is not a viable reason for annoying people in grocery stores - and manage your resultant rejection meltdown when all she wanted was some god damn potatoes.
You’ve made your desire her problem.
You have a 1st grade reading level
Please re-read my earlier comment. I was literally saying that I don’t approach women in grocery stores, because that would be weird. I was pushing back against another comment saying that not approaching women in grocery stores was objectifying them.
Edit: I just went to a grocery store. Had a pleasant conversation with the pharmacist at the counter while I picked up my prescription. Didn’t hit on her, because that would be weird.
No, no… It feels like lying because you are lying. Don’t do that. They are people and have friends and fuck and stuff like you. But at no point do they think you are a fuck dick and approach you to say that, because that is a än idiotic thing to do. Because you are a human in turn. Try to reflect on that. That both of you are human and want to fuck and at no point in that logic do any single one of you reduce the other person to a fuck object. Just learn that quick fix then you can approach them on equal terms again and actually get tail instead of whatever you are doing
No, no… It feels like lying because you are lying.
Yeah, that’s what I said.
But at no point do they think you are a fuck dick and approach you to say that
Right, that’s the problem. I wish they would. Again: see Grindr. But unfortunately, I’m not gay. Very annoying.
That both of you are human and want to fuck and at no point in that logic do any single one of you reduce the other person to a fuck object
Except that I never reduce anyone to being a fuck object. They appear in my awareness as a fuck object, with the potential for me to gain awareness of their deeper humanity later. Similarly, I do not fully appreciate the deep layers of the human experience within my cashier at McDonalds. From my point of view, they are a hamburger dispensing machine, up until the point where we form an emotional connection. And I can safely assume they are happy I see them this way, because they don’t want to see the deep layers of my humanity either - they want to see me as “faceless customer 447”, who they hand a bag to and then ignore as quickly as possible. If I went around fully appreciating the depth of the human soul in every person I looked at, I’d probably go crazy, and certainly would never get anything done.
Given that appreciating the true depth of the human soul is both time consuming and energy intensive, we must ask why we do it for any particular person. It must be because, for some particular person at some particular time, we have reason to put this time and energy in. And for random girl in the grocery store, the reason is: because she has a nice ass and I wanna fuck her. So we really just have the problem one step removed. I could be all “hey, those are some delicious looking apples.” And she’d be like “I hope so, but why the fuck are you talking to me? We’re in the grocery store, that’s weird.” And I’d say, “Because I’ve fully conceptualized the depth of your human experience and am fascinated by the minutiae of the way you’re picking your apples as just one more example of the beautiful fractal complexity of the nature of reality.” And she’d say “Okay, that’s even weirder. Are you high on mushrooms? Why are you talking to me instead of staring at the ants in the grass outside?” And of course, my honest answer must be “because you’ve got a nice ass and I wanna fuck you.”
Just learn that quick fix then you can approach them on equal terms again and actually get tail instead of whatever you are doing
I mean, “whatever I’m doing” is exactly what OP suggested in his OP. Meeting women at socially appropriate times and places (social gatherings, bars, concerts, events, etc); through my social networks and hobbies; and via online dating apps. In all of these cases, I either have an actual reason to talk to a stranger other than the fact that I want to fuck them, or else I can openly flirt with such a stranger under the assumption that this is expected and socially acceptable since the whole point of the venue is to find sexual/romantic partners. And I do this quite well. I just don’t hit on women in the grocery store.
I haven’t seen horseshoe used as a verb in… ever, but that still made sense.
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You’re supposed to wear a shirt that says ‘want to touch my pension?’
I met almost all of my previous girlfriends (including my now wife) either at parties my friends threw, or hobbies I was interested in. I never once went to a club to pick people up or try to meet people intentionally in public. That’s always seemed too creepy for me.
Women are just people.
If you learn to talk to men you don’t know, you’ll learn to talk to women you don’t know. It’s not inappropriate unless you’re trying to get something out of the situation. So don’t. Just make some new friends. Of both sexes.
As for when/where, find some hobbies. Go do the hobbies. You’ll meet people at the hobbies. Some of those people will be ladies.
Do you talk to men you don’t know in public? Small talk, or jokes at a bar? In the grocery store? Why wouldn’t you talk to women? I am a woman and have daughters and none of us is offended by this, nor even the hypersensitive one, not even the lesbian. It’s friendly talk.
It’s harassment if you don’t stop when you get a rejection. It’s harassment if you sidle up with some horrifying personal comment about her body, or grab her arm and make her listen. You aren’t going to do any of that. Small talk is not harassment, flirting is not harassment.
You are right in one way - it was bad that guys used to be able to say anything with absolute impunity, and women couldn’t stop them, I was around for the end of that. Those guys didn’t treat women like people, but in a way, neither are you, right? We are just people, talk to us like people.
I don’t talk to anyone in public because I have historically considered it to be a violation of their right to be left alone. I believed that people stuck together in groups that don’t want to interact with each other. Solo people are a group of one. If everyone follows those rules, there will be no unplanned or unwanted interactions with strangers. Given the current state of the world, the constant phone usage, and general social unrest, it made perfect sense to me that nobody would want to interact with anyone that they didn’t already trust. Based on the responses to that post, it seems like that mental model is flawed.
But this is why I assumed that the discourse around sexual harassment extended to approaching women at all. It was because I already believed that talking to strangers in general was an act of violating their space. So, I assumed that the discourse around guys being creeps was also talking about that. After all, I’d probably get nervous if someone randomly started talking to me, so of course it would make sense for other people to feel super uncomfortable from it, especially if you don’t know if the person talking to you is a predator.
This is an example of how wanting to do the right thing, combined with my limited social understanding, leads to weird and extreme takes.
This makes sense, if they modeled steamrolling people instead of gentle conversation I can understand you don’t have practice or guidance on conversation, and also it’s really normal to feel like you need to have alone space if your family didn’t give you enough of it.
But - unplanned and unwanted are two different things. Without that element of luck, randomness, our lives would be so dull. It’s nice when spontaneous conversation happens. It doesn’t have to go anywhere, doesn’t have to mean anything. I would say if you want to practice the non-confrontational small talk literally just look up from your phone when you are out and about and say hi to people, let them greet you too, see if you feel more comfortable over time.
I will note this is a sort of regional thing - Florida is sort of like ‘The South’ and kind of not, but in terms of people just striking up random conversations, we are like the South. It’s very much normal here. NYC is different people are in a hurry and brusque.
Those guys didn’t treat women like people, but in a way, neither are you, right? We are just people, talk to us like people.
This is probably the best advice you could give tbh. All the relationship stuff can’t be forced anyway but you can at least practice not freaking out and fumbling the bag around women. Not everything has layers of double meaning, romantic tension and secret motives. Sometimes you just wanna approach someone and tell them something because it’s fun to talk to strangers.
This ^ I was at the hospital today getting some lab work done. Another guy was sitting across from me, head down, in his hands, breathing heavily.
“Hey man, you OK? You don’t look so hot, can I get you some water or something?”
He was OK, 81 years old, he was just upset from being jacked around by the hospital administration. We had a good conversation. I think he was fine when I left.
I mean I generally don’t talk to strangers in public unless I have a specific reason to. Why would I talk to someone I don’t know in a supermarket? They’re just other people doing the same thing I am
"Woah, those apples look so good! Which ones are they? "
“I can never tell if a watermelon is ripe, can you?”
When I am buying something, often someone will say “have you tried that before? What is it like?”
Stuff like that. Small talk. We aren’t machines, we are social animals who interact with each other. I do think people are quick to discount the value of weak social interaction, shallow relationships, and focus on deep friendships and romantic ones, but those weak connections are so valuable too. They are like a glue for a community, connections that don’t demand much from you.
I’m far from extroverted and moderately socially awkward, but still my life is so much better when I look up and say hi to people.
Yeah have never had anyone say anything like that to me at the grocery store unless I’m shopping with them. If they did I’d probably just be vaguely annoyed. Maybe it’s s culture thing I don’t know
You are wrong. Yeah times have changed, but not so much that you can’t just fucking talk to someone. Say hi, strike up a conversation, whatever, and trust that anyone who doesn’t want to talk will say so. The important thing when that happens is to listen to them and leave them alone.
You are right, your parents are out of touch. Stick to your guns on this.
It depends on the context but generally no.
I’ll just say you probably shouldn’t take dating advice from people who haven’t done any dating for the last 30-40 years. The world has most certainly changed.
The world has changed, but this particular piece of advice is timeless. I approach people I want to talk to in real life every day, multiple times a day. No one is ever offended by it, literally ever. The reason women get offended over men approaching is because they do this thing where they approach the woman as an object, leading with their sexual desire, as if the woman is obligated to satisfy them simply because the man feels attracted. It’s a recipe for disaster.
Listen, men, there’s nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to a woman. But approach her as a human being first. Be considerate of how she’s feeling, pay attention to her boundaries, and be respectful. Of course, at some point, you need to express your interest, and it’s better to be transparent about that rather than creepy. If you are motivated by sexual interest, her intuition will tell her that long before you think it will, so no sense in hiding it. But as a general rule, never outpace the level of reciprocation she’s given you.
That means, don’t walk up to a stranger who isn’t making eye contact with you and tell her you want to fuck her. Don’t even ask for her number. First, make eye contact. If she makes eye contact back, you can proceed to the next step. Say hi. If she says hi back, you can introduce yourself. If she reciprocates by introducing herself, you can ask a question or tell her something. After you’ve had a conversation, you can ask for her number, or suggest a date. But take it one step at a time. If you take two steps ahead and she hasn’t reciprocated, that’s when you’re gonna get into trouble. If she stops reciprocating, stop escalating. If she expresses a boundary or discomfort, thank her for letting you know, and back off.
TLDR; approach! But slow the fuck down and pay attention to if she’s comfortable and reciprocating. Respect her boundaries. You honestly won’t go wrong with that approach.
I’ve approached about 800 women a year, for the past 4 years and the worst thing that’s happened is that my ego got a little bit hurt a few times when they said no thank you. Zero drama, zero anger, zero cancellation. And I’m just an average looking ginger dude.
People are allowed to speak to one another in public. Just be respectful of people’s cues, and that goes for people of all genders.
I disagree. While certainly some things differ between generations, human nature is still the same and the world in many regards isn’t all that different from 40 years ago.
I don’t know OP’s parents so I can’t speak to them specifically, but I wouldn’t automatically discount someone’s opinion just because they’re a couple decades older.
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OP’s parents are in their sixties; they probably were born in the mid '50s to mid '60s and started dating in the '70s/'80s. Courtship probably didn’t factor in unless they’re Mormons or something.
Edit: I re-read and realized OP said his parents are almost 60, meaning almost definitely started their dating lives in the '80s.
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Don’t worry, at OPs rate he’ll never be dating
I think you have a point, but also you’ve cranked that point to 11. Possibly 12.
Like yes, women can be really infuriated by how often they get hit on. I know the main reason my wife wanted a stereotypical wedding ring with a single diamond was that “it’ll keep the flies away”
But also… people interact with you in public. It’s like… a property of public spaces. Indeed talking to my wife in a public space is how we met.
The way you make it sound from your description would be that asking some woman directions would be a social fopah. Hell, where does just “having a conversation” land for you then? If you leave without asking for a number, is it different?
There’s a difference between idle chit chat and approaching like Johnny Bravo.
Faux pas, hehe never seen it as fopah
?huh? there’s no x in foh pa. “fox paws” pls be serious sir
Im sorry, im just a goose.
I gave up because I was typing on my phone.
I approached someone before the pan and asked for her number. She provided it and while it didn’t go anywhere, she complimented me for doing a real-life approach. But I’m twice your age, so I’d go with what peers your age tell you. The rules could be completely different.
First, they need to find better things to worry about. pressing this is exactly how you end up with regrettable relationships. Second, ignore the gender. Treat women like people. If a situation comes up, like someone makes a scene at the front of a line you are both in, strike up a conversation about that. See where it goes. Lasting things occur organically. That being said, “she’s hot and I want to be inside her” is not a good enough reason to strike up a conversation with someone. Appreciate the sight but don’t try to capitalize on it.
Look at it this way, it’s the same as approaching someone in public to make a friend. Obviously, that’s not inappropriate. It’s only inappropriate if you’re treating it differently (which you shouldn’t be).
How many friends have you made cold approaching people on the street or in shops like that?
Do people often react by treating you with intense suspicion? Ngl, overly chatty/friendly strangers freak me the fuck out.
I think you should just make a habit of talking to people around you. You’re kind of putting human interaction on a pedestal and that’s just going to make you overthink things.
First of all, you need to understand it’s not some pre-planned thing. You should be making a point to go out to do things you like doing - not going out with the explicit agenda of just talking to people. That’s why I think the term “cold approach” is loaded, and full of shit–It inaccurately makes it sound like something negative and unnatural–In actuality you’ve done it many times before without thinking about it.
Seems you’ve gone deep into this analysis, of which none of it is actually relevant though, because you’re not talking about the root cause of your feelings. Which is that you have social anxiety.
I dread encounters with folk like you when I leave the house.
I get that some humans are naturally more socially inclined, so you require constant affirmations and acknowledgment from everyone around you or you stop feeling good about yourselves and whatever, but this kind of self centred attention seeking that has you going out in public and deciding everyone should want to talk to you if you just go up to them and start talking- is incredibly fucking selfish.
Why do you think you’re so special and important that you get to interrupt people going about their lives and make them listen to you talk? Nobody owes you this. If you want to talk at people start a fucking podcast and let me buy my apples in peace.
Is this something people actually do? I’ve only made friends through shared activities, mostly class, and by meeting friends of friends.
It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.
If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.
Instructions unclear, now paying for a gay wedding.
