I apologize if this is old news, but I just noticed it. It looks like Kagi has added Fediverse Forums as a default Web search option.
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heres to the painfully slow and gradual rebirth of the internet.
We learned a lot of lessons from the first one. Here’s hoping we don’t make the same mistakes.
lets see if federation can keep the hawks away. they will certainly be trying (again) once we hit critical mass.
That’s nice indeed! Thanks for sharing.
Obligatory mention that Kagi also use the Russian search index Yandex. This aids the Russian economy and the Russian war effort.
When does anti Russian gov aggression just become racism? Does using Google aid the war in Palestine?
I see your point, but I think there is a meaningful difference.
Russia started a war with a peaceful nation. It is in no way, shape or form a provoked war.
There are a couple of ways you can react to hurt the agressor. With the goal of making them stop hurting the innocent. Military action is one, economic is another.
Most European countries have decided to hurt them economically. As a European I agree with this, and fully support it. I try my best not to support the Russian economy. If Russia as a country changes in the future, my view will probably change as well. This is a war that Putin started.
That said, I believe the support from the US to Israel was wrong. The US has been supporting genocide. One could argue that supporting the US economy supports these sorts of actions as well. However, the scale is important and how much involvement is important.
If you had mentioned an Israeli company, I would agree 100%. The difference is that the US have not been spending 1/4 to 1/3 of their entire fiscal budget fighting a peaceful democratic nation as the agressor.
Anyways, at this point I am kinda mad at the US for being a unreliable partner and going to trade war with Europe and bailing in their responsibilities when it comes to the war in Ukraine and creating uncertajnty within NATO, threatening nations etc, anyways. So not spending a lot of money on US goods and services at the moment either no.
Technically you could extend that reasoning to plenty of EU countries that also send aid to Israel (e.g., Germany, where Hetzner is located, or tuta, etc.).
At some point one has to make compromises, and everyone can place the line where they wish. Considering 1000 searches per month, the price is going to be between $0.20 and $3.84 (synchronous). So let’s say $2, which is probably an order of magnitude more than the real cost. Of that 2$, the margin is maybe 1$? That 1$ becomes profit for some Kazakh company, which ultimately means $0.2 in taxes. If this was in Russia, that would be $0.018 to the federal government, but let’s say that it doesn’t matter. Of that, 40% goes in weapons, making it $0.08/month. In 1 year, that’s $0.96.
Now, as I said I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an overestimation of 10x or more, it also assumes that absolutely nothing goes to Kazakh government, which is fully used to bypass sanctions, and a 50% margin for the company. It also assumes 1000 searches (the average was around 300 if I recall correctly) and that yandex is used for each one of them.
Every cent count, absolutely, but it’s objectively such a tiny amount that a one-time donation to UA army or some humanitarian relief org will offset you for like 15 years.
I totally agree that it is a miniscule amount. I try to prioritize more effective actions for other causes I care about, but personally am uncomfortable with any compromises with Russia at the moment. Luckily it’s basically close to zero products and services that are Russian, so it’s easy to avoid. So everytime I come across something Russian, I just avoid it. Kagi is one of the really rare times.
There’s also non-economic reasons to avoid a Russian index considering their reputation with misinformation campaigns. Even a slight nudge in the direction of Russian positive propaganda is damaging. But this was not my initial argument.
There is also the information gathering aspect, knowing what people search for (even if anonymous) is valuable.
Source?
Best I can find links a sweedish page on the topic
https://fedia.io/m/privacy@lemmy.ml/t/1334785
It’s kind of odd I can’t find more sources which does make me a bit skeptical
and they use Brave, too.
Every single time with red comes up there’s always this FUD.
Why?
Imagine a search engine aggregator aggregating search engine results from multiple sources for aggregation.
The topic of this post, fediverse search, as part of their own search engine anyways afaik
I have been sick a lot lately, so have had a lot of time on my hands. I don’t have a search for Kagi or something. I wanted to use Kagi though, so I was disappointed when I realized that they want to continue this practice.
What are you implying with it being suspicious? In what way?
If Kagi pays a Russian company for a service, that company pays taxes to the Russian government.
Russia spends 32% of its budget on the Russian military. So for every dollar they get in taxes, one third is spent on the Russian military.
With a corporate tax rate of 20% that means 6.4% of Yandex profits go to the military. Since Kagi is mainly a paid service, I don’t want my money to go to the Russian military, and I guess a lot of other people don’t want this either.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-hikes-national-defence-spending-by-23-2025-2024-09-30/
The Russian people are not to blame, and I am sure a lot of great people work at Yandex and at different companies in Russia. That said, Russia chose to attack a peaceful democratic country, they are currently sanctioned by a lot of western countries in hopes that it will pressure their economy enough to force them to stop the war.
There isn’t much we can do to stop the conflict besides hurting them economically and supporting Ukraine. If we continue to use Russian products and services then that does not work. Unfortunately this affects everyone in Russia.
Thank you
I’m grateful someone mentioned it. Paying Yandex is a deal breaker for me. As much as Yandex may want to be independent, they cannot be because of the country they’re based in. With the way things are going, the same may be true of Google and Kagi itself somewhere within the next four years.
Kagi defends itself by saying it’s “only used 2% of the time” which would make a better argument that turning off the feature to distance themselves from Russia has little impact than a defence for working with them. There’s also the “but we’ve always done it like this” defence and something about “providing the best results” but neither are great arguments.
But yandex is useful for those who search in Russian. The low utilization probably comes from a mostly US/EU customer base, but when it is used, it is useful. I would disagree with disabling it. The best would be letting people decide what back ends to use, but that requires a whole rewrite of the search logic on their side, so it’s not happening any time soon…
BTW in EU we still use a lot of gas and oil from Russia, so it’s quite difficult to avoid giving them money (especially because we don’t know where energy came from for every product we buy).
Doing continuing business with Yandex at all is bad enough for me. I’m having enough trouble cutting off Russia-supporting products and services already, I’m not taking on new ones if I can avoid it.
Kagi is a great concept for a search engine, but looking at the forum posts by their CEO, their priorities clearly won’t ever align with mine. I hope they get similar competition as Google crumbles further and further, because their business model is how search engines should be making money.
Fair enough, I am also not attached to kagi, mostly I want companies with good business models to succeed in tech. I want to see ad-revenue based companies (and all the connected industry) to crumble. A man can dream…
I think brave let’s you do the same thing with their goggles feature which let’s users make custom search filters. I could be mistaken though
(and yes I know Brave as a company comes with baggage. Pretty much all of the search options do unfortunately :/)
How is Firefox’s baggage anywhere close to homophobia and a crypto scam
Firefox isn’t a search engine…? I’m talking about Brave search, not the browser, I have exactly zero reasons to use Brave browser lol 😅
Brave the company sucks, but most of the alternative/private search engines give poor results and/or are just a meta search. Brave search performs more competitively with google than most (thank you google for making that easier every passing day), and isn’t dependent on Google or Microsoft continuing to allow other engines to use their results.
From what I understand kagi has some issues too, but not as much baggage as brave has. Brave has a lot 😅. But Kagi and Brave will often appeal to different people, since Brave is free and Kagi is a subscription with a monthly quota of available searches
If someone is interested about Kagi vs Google (made by Kagi): https://mastodon.social/@kagihq/113971972586118949
I’ve been using Kagi for the last year+.
Personally, I wish they’d tone down the AI stuff that ruined Google, but at least you can turn most of it off.
Their results are okay, a little better than Bing, but obviously they’re limited by their existing index providers, I wish they’d run their own spiders and crawl for their own data, since I think Bing fails on a lot of coverage of obscure websites.
In general I find the weighting of modern indexes to be subpar, though the SEO industry has made it a hard problem to tackle, I wish more small websites and forums were higher ranked, and AI slop significantly de rated.
TW: Self harm
Also not a huge fan of the company and a lot of it’s ardent customers, who heavily protested a suicide prevention popup if you used it to searched for how to kill yourself.
Kagi has multiple indexes of their own
And the AI stuff is all opt on from what I can tell. I’ve never gotten any AI thing except when I asked for it
They have smallweb and news indexing, but other than that AFAICT they rely completely on other providers. Which is a shame, Google allows submitting sites for indexing and notifies if they can’t.
Running a scraper doesn’t need to cover everything since they have access to other indexes, but they really should be developing that ability instead of relying on Bing and other providers to provide good results, or results at all.
Running an index is quite a massive endeavor at the scale of Google. They’re a small team.
I think it makes sense considering there’s a competitive market of indexes already. They make small ones to cover some niches and use existing ones for the rest.
Keep in mind they also add their own reranking and stuff on top of Bing Google whatever
If they were a small or free service I wouldn’t have much issue, but they do charge, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that they at least attempt to scrape the wider web.
Building their own database seems the prudent thing long-term, I don’t doubt they could shore up coverage over Bing. They don’t have to replace the other indexes wholesale, just supplement it.
Have you tried the small web lens? They run their own index specifically to help surface the content you mention is hard to find by default.
Small web always returns 0 results for anything that isn’t extremely broad, unfortunately.
Does anyone else’s search on lemmy actually work as expected? I feel like it never finds anything really relevant. I can search for audio interfaces for example and all the first results are about software in general and not actually the hardware component.
Cool, but I will still prefer to use duckduckgo and type Lemmy in the end of my query.
It’s had it for at least months but even if its years old it’s still a cool feature and deserves attention
Kagi is shaping up to be really cool with this and the Orion browser supporting firefox/chrome extensions on ios.
Imagine if someone added that feature to SearX/SearXNG
There is one. Or maybe not just one.
Neat feature. Any word on if Kagi has ties to the Kremlin?
I have no idea, but they amongst other indexes use the index from the Russian company Yandex
If you’re worried about Kagi’s connections, I recommend checking out this podcast with the CEO
Will check that out? Thanks!!!
Its an American company so I suppose it is possible.
It’s had this for quite some time
I’ve been using Kagi for about a month now, and I think I’m gonna stick with it. Paying with dollars instead of data/attention feels more healthy for everyone involved.
(Fully realizing, of course, that there’s nothing stopping them from doing both, and that’s why we need better laws. Voting with your wallet will never be a complete solution… but it is something I can do right now.)
I have been on it for about a year and I have no complaints.
Since they implemented privacy pass, there is now something stopping them from doing both. See https://help.kagi.com/kagi/privacy/privacy-pass.html
Obviously with it you trade the need to trust them for your own personalization (as they can’t know it was you searching).
Funny how the tech space is hyped up about privacy pass when Kagi implemented it, but got outraged when Cloudflare worked with Apple to try to use it as a CAPTCHA alternative.
I don’t know the details, so maybe there is a reason, but I am not part of the “outraged” crowd. I think kagi use case is neat and innovative, bot protection is meh
A very reassuring technology to have!
But my worry was more about them changing their business model once they get big enough.
I think their customer base is basically 90% made of people that - like me - would quit in a second.
Good thing is that there is no vendor lock, it would be a shame, but changing search engine is quite simple.
I think when I tried them out a while back they also had a usenet search? Can anyone clarify on this?
They do.
Not sure if you use that feature but does it work like an indexer and allow direct downloads of “Linux isos”?
